GNOME Women

I know you meant no harm with your post, but take about 10 minutes and read the following HOWTO, and try to understand where you went wrong with what you just said:

http://infohost.nmt.edu/~val/howto.html

I have also taken the liberty to mirror this document on two of my servers:

http://www.kennethpaul.com/Encourage-Women-in-Linux-HOWTO.html

http://www.makeitfast.com/Encourage-Women-in-Linux-HOWTO.html

All puns aside though, I think you have hit the nail on the head for this whole movement. It's not just about treating women better than the centuries of discrimination they have faced (just because their plumbing is introverted and not swinging in the wind), but about treating people in general better. At least, that's my take on those links I posted above. YMMV.

And no, I'm not Val; I'm not even a woman. I'm just a guy who believes in fair treatment; to give/be given a chance to show what a person can do. Some people think this is moot, and unnecessary, and those are the people I think should be trying to listen to the real message; to read between the lines. How many people, not just women, are being turned away from OSS just because someone copped that attitude 'stupid n00bs' or 'RTFM stoopid n00b' or some other degenerating comment. Yet, these are typically the same people that turn around and say things like 'We need more people for xyz'.

There are too many mixed signals, and the thing is, most people I have observed don't even know they are sending those mixed signals. The problem is not so much in the attitudes themselves, but in the fact that not many people realize the error of their ways, or worse yet, think they are completely justified in their ways.

I, too, was part of the problem. I used to get pissed off at all those so-called 'stoopid n00bs' who couldn't even use a mouse, let alone run their company's website, and I was left to 'teach' them what they wanted to know. I felt like they had no business using a computer. I was a hypocrit, and you couldn't convince me otherwise.

I learned, over the years, that my attitude was the problem, not the users. Once I figured that out, and fixed it, I found things got a lot easier for everyone concerned. Yeah, I still had to support all types of inexperienced people, but the difference was that since I was more open to their presence, the more open they were to learning. It just got easier from there...

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to get involved with OSS and been shunned and turned away. Unfortunately, for the time being, I haven't the luxery of being formaly educated in programming. That is not my fault, nor is it anyone elses. It's just a sad fact of life. But, not having anyone out there to just give me advice (other than the non-useful 'don't learn xyz language cos it's a waste of time').

I feel that when people learn that everybody learns at their own—unique—pace, and when they learn to be truely helpful instead of condiscending, then the sooner we all will see more and more people getting involved [productively] in OSS, Gnome, and everything else out there.

These are my three cents; take them for what you will, but don't just dismiss them because they are different than yours.

"It is better for people to think you are a fool, then for you to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

I completely agree on every level with your post. In fact, I'd like to add to what you said by saying that if anyone in a community tries to alienate themselves as 'exclusive' then they are doing nothing more than just that: alienating themselves. In this case, it would serve to only back-peddle their purpose by closing themselves off from a great resource—other like-minded developers who only wish to help. :-)

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"It is better for people to think you are a fool, then for you to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

"It's not just about treating women better than the centuries of discrimination they have faced (just because their plumbing is introverted and not swinging in the wind)"....

You have GOT to be kidding....

This is the biggest fraud perpetrated on modern men (and women for that matter) to come down the pipe. The idea that men and women performing certain duties to each other and having responsibility for raising a family is absolutely ludicrous. This whole debate is complete "crap" dreamed up my unfullfilled, lonely, pathetic men and women who have no idea what a meaningful relationship is.

Please, spare everyone the "Femi-Nazi" (as much as I hate Rush Limbaugh, I like this characterization) clap-trap....

Chains find only willing wrists...so if you're willing, vote Republican.

"You have GOT to be kidding...."

Yes, we are all joking. Come on. It must be nice for you to live in a part of the world that obviously doesn't have these problems; maybe, rather, you are just obvlious to them.

"This is the biggest fraud perpetrated..."

Not everyone is treated fairly, and yes gender does play a role. So, fraud; it is not.

"Please, spare everyone the 'Femi-Nazi'..."

You, my friend, need to calm down and get some perspective. I guess to you the women's right to vote was a bunch of "Femi-Nazi's" or the million man march was a bunch of "Afri-Nazi's". How about the American Revolution... was that a bunch of "Ameri-Nazi's". Sound stupid? Yes, it is. So is your classification that women standing up to be taken seriously in IT as Femi-Nazi's.

You don't have to agree, and you sure as Hell can say you don't agree. You've done that, and more. All *I'm* saying is that people need to be nicer and more respectable to others--something, which obviously, was lost on you.

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"It is better for people to think you are a fool, then for you to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

That HOWTO describes in very good detail how to be a civilized human being, and should be applied to everybody you meet in life. If those people happen to be women too, then that's extra-goodness. You cannot tell me you've never been a sexist before. If you say you haven't, then I think you just never knew it, and obviously never read the HOWTO.

It is better for people to think you are a fool, then for you to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Since we're on the subject, I thought I'd comment on something--to clear up an obvious misunderstanding of my intended use of the word "Complacent".

I can see where you would think I mis-used the word, or rather, used it in a way you're not used to. According to dictionary.com, complacent simply means (among other things, yes) 'content to a fault...". Now, again according to dictionary.com, content simply means (yes, again among other things) 'Ready to accept or acquiesce...'.

So, given those meanings, yes I still stand by my original post where I called people with your mind-set as complacent. I personally don't believe that IT is dead and/or dying. I believe that certain people got into the industry because they believed all the hype that being in IT was next to godliness.

No, I agree it's not. Sometimes it outright bytes! But, that is the nature of the beast. You have middle/upper management who makes the decisions about budget, when they don't understand why IT needs what IT needs; most IT I have worked with had to deal with substandard components, equipment, and even software, because there was no budget to upgrade when needed most. Yeah, it is frustrating, and some days you can't help but wonder why you're doing IT anymore. Some days though can be almost magical. No matter how far and few between those 'magical' days are, I still believe IT is worth the trouble and effort.

I agree that microbiology, molecular biology, biochemistry are up and coming, but to say that IT is dead is way premature. Who is going to set up and run those computers for microbiology, molecular biology, biochemistry industries? Who is going to troubleshoot and fix the problems that inevitably break or malfunction? IT; that's who.

While IT will always have a need, I concede that those IT Tech schools are [at least partly] to blame for the current state of the IT industry. It's sad that they are churning more and more so-called IT professionals out by the dozen. It makes it really hard to get real quality people, to do real quality work.

I digress...

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"It is better for people to think you are a fool, then for you to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

*delete me*

I totally disagree because giving people the choice to say "George" or "Jane" will help distinguish which gender is posting. This is a good thing because new-comer women would see other women in the community being active, and might help ease some of their anxiety in jumping in too. That is important because they will know that they will not be alone in the community, which has far too long been male-dominated (explicitly and/or implied).

That wouldn't work, because at least half of the trolls would chose "Jane" to increase their Karma...
A gender setting for the user account would be more logical.