Scribes 0.1 Released

Actually, C/C++ indenting is not very smart in Emacs. It indents in one of the following cases:

* At the ";" at the end of the line.
* When manually pressing tab.
* When opening a "(".

Other editors are smarter: They automatically place the cursor at the correct indent as soon as you create the new line by pressing the return key, before you even type any other text. So you don't even need to use the tab key in most cases.

-Samuel

Do these other editors also re-indent the line when the line above it is changed?

Is there any IDE out there that does not support this? I thought an auto-format feature (e.g. using "GNU indent") is part of the standard feature set these days.

That's a feature, and a very useful one, not a flaw. Common people couldn't care less about purists' vision of tab editing as a form of MDI: it's useful, we love it, more of that thanks. Period.

rehdon

There is difference between a feature and a behavior. You could have a feature that is implemented poorly. Clicking on a document on workspace 5 should not open it in a tab in Gedit on workspace 2. Besides, tabs don't scale well. And no, I don't use them in Firefox/Epiphany. And 90% of the world doesn't use them in their web browser either. I, along with 90% of web browsing population, must be weird.

There is difference between a feature and a behavior. You could have a feature that is implemented poorly. Clicking on a document on workspace 5 should not open it in a tab in Gedit on workspace 2.

First you say that tabs are a flaw, now you seem to imply that they are indeed useful but gedit only offers a poor implementation. You should decide what you're thinking before discussing "features".

Besides, tabs don't scale well.

Huh? what are you talking about? If you're saying that 100 tabs can be unwieldy you're perfectly right, but that's not "scaling", it's tab abuse.

And no, I don't use them in Firefox/Epiphany. And 90% of the world doesn't use them in their web browser either. I, along with 90% of web browsing population, must be weird.

Hmmm, actually I think you're not that weird, it's just that like that 90% of web browsing population you seem to be happy with what the monopolist is shoving down your throat. Worse, if you using Firefox or Epiphany instead of IE and never tried tab browsing you're just mimicking "I-know-no-better" users' behaviour: have a go at tabs, see for yourself. If you tried tabs and utterly dislike them, well, then you're a little weird ;)

rehdon

First you say that tabs are a flaw, now you seem to imply that they are indeed useful but gedit only offers a poor implementation. You should decide what you're thinking before discussing "features".

I never said tabs were a flaw. I said Gedit's tabs/MDI behavior had flaws. You were the person who brought up "features," not me.

Huh? what are you talking about? If you're saying that 100 tabs can be unwieldy you're perfectly right, but that's not "scaling", it's tab abuse.

That's very much what I'm saying. And in programming and design speak, that's called poor scalling.

Hmmm, actually I think you're not that weird, it's just that like that 90% of web browsing population you seem to be happy with what the monopolist is shoving down your throat. Worse, if you using Firefox or Epiphany instead of IE and never tried tab browsing you're just mimicking "I-know-no-better" users' behaviour: have a go at tabs, see for yourself. If you tried tabs and utterly dislike them, well, then you're a little weird ;)

Agreed, I'm weird. That's why I believe tabs are overrated and bad in general. Applications should not be doing the job of a window manager. Unfortunately, innovations in window management has all but retarded on Unix. So many developers have bought into the tab hype to hack their way around the limitations of window managers. I'm not saying Tabs/MDIs aren't useful. They are in very limited situations. I'm just saying most of the implementations I see are flawed or poorly implemented.

I used tabs until I realize I could live without it and I could navigate open documents faster via Alt-tabbing. How do you alt-tab with tabs again? That's right you can't. Ironically, from what I see, Vista is actually getting Window Management right. Yeah, hell is freezing over as we speak.

I never said tabs were a flaw. I said Gedit's tabs/MDI behavior had flaws. You were the person who brought up "features," not me.

You're right, point taken.

That's very much what I'm saying. And in programming and design speak, that's called poor scalling.

Actually I'd call it "dumbness", but even assuming, for the sake of the argument, that a user might need 100 tabs open at the same time... [continued below]

Applications should not be doing the job of a window manager.

... how is the poor WM going to cope with 100 windows??? because you only move the problem upward, not solving it at all. On the contrary, tabs can be very useful to reduce clutter on the task bar (which, in my case, is crowded enough already, thank you).

I used tabs until I realize I could live without it and I could navigate open documents faster via Alt-tabbing.

But Alt-tabbing is of limited use if you have more than one desktop open, i.e. the normal situation for a GNOME user. It's an old solution to an increasingly complex problem, see the recent Expose tricks if you want some innovation.

In any case, Alt-tabbing is a sequential process, slower than visually picking the desired tab in a browser window.

How do you alt-tab with tabs again? That's right you can't.

Supposing that here alt-tab means "go to the desired tab without raising your hands from the keyboard", you can either Ctrl+PgUp/PgDown to move from one tab to the following one, or press Alt+1 for the first etc. You can also use the mouse wheel to move from tab to tab. So, plenty of tab-browsing solutions there!

rehdon

... how is the poor WM going to cope with 100 windows??? because you only move the problem upward, not solving it at all. On the contrary, tabs can be very useful to reduce clutter on the task bar (which, in my case, is crowded enough already, thank you).

I was playing along with your exageration. Clutter on the task bar can be removed by intelligently grouping similar applications together. I also need to mention that it is easier to manage 100 windows than it is to manage 100 tabs, given todays window management techniques. This again proves my point about the scalibility, or lack thereof, of tabs.

But Alt-tabbing is of limited use if you have more than one desktop open, i.e. the normal situation for a GNOME user. It's an old solution to an increasingly complex problem, see the recent Expose tricks if you want some innovation.

And tabs are limited to one application. So, I don't see your point. Expose is just one of the thousands tricks window managers can implement to provide "intelligent" management.

In any case, Alt-tabbing is a sequential process, slower than visually picking the desired tab in a browser window.

Try working with more than 7 tabs open. And then see if it is easier to pick from 7 tabs or 7 windows. GTK applications for instance implement fixed width tabs. So after about 4 or 5 tabs are open, the remain tabs remain hidden from the view of the user. On other platform, the tabs width are variable. So as you open more tabs, the tabs width shrink and your mouse aiming perimeter needs to get a lot more accurate. Add to that the fact that as the tabs shrink you loose all cognitive information about its content. So you have to go tab hoping to actually see what each tab contains.

Supposing that here alt-tab means "go to the desired tab without raising your hands from the keyboard", you can either Ctrl+PgUp/PgDown to move from one tab to the following one, or press Alt+1 for the first etc. You can also use the mouse wheel to move from tab to tab. So, plenty of tab-browsing solutions there!

The keyword here is visual. The alternatives you mentioned aren't visual, at all! If I have 7 tabs open, what is in tab positon 5? I don't know, so I click to check what is there. Crap! It isn't what I want. Yes, so which tab did I come from again? Crap, I forget, so click on each tab till I find the one, I came from.

Contrast that with alt-tab. The best implementation of alt-tab I've seen is on Windows. Where alt-tab presents a thumbnail of all the windows you have open. GNOME's alt-tab behavior isn't bad either. It has ample visual clues to help you select the "exact" document/application you want to deal with.

Okay, forget the end users perspective. Did I mention designing MDI interfaces from a developer's perspective is pain? I didn't? Yeap, now you know.

There are several other advantages that windows have over tabs, like the ability to compare the contents of different documents side by side. Tabs/MDIs only breed complexity. It's a developer's cheap solution to a tough problem, good design.

Your assumption is that the user should use tabs everywhere, and use them instead of windows as much as possible: I never said that, and I don't subscribe to that view. On the contrary, what I said is that a combination of tabs and multiple windows is the best approach to organize your stuff and reduce clutter on the desktop(s). For instance:

There are several other advantages that windows have over tabs, like the ability to compare the contents of different documents side by side.

Believe it or not, I do that all the time with gedit! No annoying little clip popping up saying "Don't do that, you only must use tabs" ;)

So, while you make some interesting points on scaling, I'm not convinced by your overall argument: let's say that we agree to disagree. One last remark:

Did I mention designing MDI interfaces from a developer's perspective is pain?

Careful there: putting the developer's needs/preferences on top is a sure way to produce something the user won't touch with a 2m pole.

rehdon

Your assumption is that the user should use tabs everywhere, and use them instead of windows as much as possible:

I have not made such assumptions at all.

On the contrary, what I said is that a combination of tabs and multiple windows is the best approach to organize your stuff and reduce clutter on the desktop(s). For instance:

Your point is much clearer now. However, I respectfully disagree. It is the sole responsibility of the window manager in conjunction with the desktop environment to "intelligently" reduce clutter on your desktop. Applications should be completely tranparent to the user. The application should only serve as an interface to the data the user wants to manipulate. Applications should not manage clutter. Well at least if it not designed purposefully for that.

So, while you make some interesting points on scaling, I'm not convinced by your overall argument: let's say that we agree to disagree. One last remark:

I am not exactly bright at debating. But at least, now you know that my stance against tabs/mdis are not baseless.

Careful there: putting the developer's needs/preferences on top is a sure way to produce something the user won't touch with a 2m pole.

Most users are not trained to recognise or appreciate the compromises of software complexity and design. There are some things that are just better left to developers.

"Careful there: putting the developer's needs/preferences on top is a sure way to produce something the user won't touch with a 2m pole."

But putting the user on top of the developer is a sure way to scare developers off, therebefore resulting in no/unmaintained applications for the user to use!

Who said you have to put the user on top of the developer? The words "reasonable compromise" come to mind ...

How do you alt-tab with tabs again? That's right you can't.

Of course you can, use Ctrl+PgUp/PgDown. Also, that way the non-webbrowser windows don't get in your way.

-Samuel

That's not an alternative to alt-tab. With alt-tab you can visually select which window you want to focus. You can't do the same with tabs, or the solution you presented.

With "visually select" you mean that you can see the icon and the border of the actual window? How is that better than seeing the complete content?

You can also the the title of the contents of each document. On some other platforms, instead of icons, they use thumbnails. Hopefully, Metacity will implement it someday.

I haven't tried Scribe, but I have somtimes wished for a more lightweight alternative. When I say "Editor", I usually mean something that when clicked opens practically immediately, like, 0.5 seconds startup time max. on a P3-800. On such hardware gedit can take between 5 and 10 seconds to start up, which can sometimes be annoying.

-Samuel

It's a simple and light GTK+ based text editor,

http://tarot.freeshell.org/leafpad/

yate indeed, and by the looks of it one that just sticks gtksourceview in a window and adds a toolbar.

Nothing at all! On the contrary, as another AG remarked it only makes world domination a step closer ;)

rehdon